staying married for the kids

I am a Christian and so I will give you my perspective on your friend's situation. I do admire her strength and her belief that she is staying "for the kids" sake. However, if the husband is verbally abusive, I don't see how that is a positive situation for her children. Even if she thinks they don't hear what her husband says to her, I guarantee that they do hear it and it is affecting them as well. Staying with an abusive partner for whatever reason is not a good situation for children. If the child is a girl, I am sure your friend would never want her to pick an abusive partner as well, but staying with an abusive man could lead that daughter to pick an abusive man as well without even realizing it. If the child is a boy, he will think it is okay to be verbally abusive to his partner in the future. I don't think staying with an abusive partner, regardless of religion, is good for the children at all and if at all possible it would be better for her to leave now.

YIKES!!!
Again - we teach by example so she should be prepared to have her children marry spouses who treat them bad. She is showing her children that her life does not matter and you can be treated this way. On the other side, maybe they will be the ones who treat their spouses bad. Either situation is not a healthy one. I say get out = God will understand.

KarilouMomof2 is a discussion leader for arizonamoms.com living in Tempe. Her daughters are 9 and 6.

Honestly, there is no strength in "staying for the sake of the children" that shows weakness and a lack of self-esteem.

Strength is having the ability to walk away from a situation that is detrimental to you and your children. By staying, all she's done is let her children know that the way her husband treats her is the way her son should treat a woman and the way her daughter should expect to be treated and she is doing them both a great disservice.

You are wrong, she is a doormat. Anyone that would stay in an abusive situation and subject their children to that type of abuse is not only a doormat, but by doing nothing to protect her children, she has become an enabling abuser.

It is better to be hated for what you are, than to be loved for what you are not.

I agree with everyone that has posted. I think the husband being LDS is irrelevent. Just like friends told me my ex was the way he was because he is Hispanic and that is their culture.I am a Christian woman who was in this same situation. My ex was verbally, mentally,physically and emotionally, abusive. Noone will ever understand until you are in that situation. I stayed with my ex for my kids for several years. God finally answered my prayers and gave me the strength to get out of a horrible situation. See behind closed doors I did endure physical abuse. Noone on earth knew about it. If I did something that day he didnt like or he came home in a bad mood I would get hit. You never know what happens behind closed doors. One day my then 4 year old and 3 year old daughter came up to me and my 4 year old proceeds to ask me "mommy, why does daddy call you bad names? he is not supposed to say those words to anybody. why does daddy hit you and throw things at the wall sometimes, he is very mean to you." That's all it took. God spoke to me directly through my daughters. I will never forgot her words or that day. I kicked him out he went to a rage and i feared for my life. He threatend suicide and was just crazed. I called 911 and because of priors he went to jail for 8 months. In that time the courts gave me a divorce in the shortest amount legally 64 days because there was a history of domestic violence. It's ironice because until I took the parenting classes I thought domestic violence was just physical abuse. It's not, it entails every kind of abuse. 4 years later, I am so happy as my daughters are as well. I feel like I can breath now. In case anyone is wondering my ex has supervised visitation because of his history of drug abuse. I thank God for always protecting my daughters from abuse from my ex husband. Keep praying and having faith is my advice. I have learned so much and I feel like everything I went through has made me a better more compassinate person. I also pray your friend realizes she also needs to teach her kids that her husbands behavior is not okay ever and should not ever be tolerated.

Jennifer is a discussion leader for arizonamoms.com and mommy to four beautiful girls who range from 9 to 4 years of age.

As a friend, I would encourage your friend to continue to seek to improve her relationship with her husband. Whether or not she stays married to him forever, she will have a relationship with him forever. Counseling for herself if that's all that she can manage at first. But often when men SEE a strong, capable woman, taking charge of herself, they tend to back off on their critique and actually envision her leaving them, which can ellicit charge. Of course, she FEELS like she's done everything that she can, but even criminals can change. As a Christian friend, I would encourage her everyday to work on the relationship and herself. It really does only take one to change the dynamics. Quietly resolving to stick it out until the kids are 18, simply doesn't sound as if she's trying. Feelings follow behavior, not the other way around, as most people think. If he never does change, thenn at least she'd lived the next few years being the best she could be.

"Only a life lived for others, is the life worthwhile" - Albert Einstein

OK, a story by example. A friend in high school mother was johovah's witness. My friend had stopped going to church a year earlier. One Sunday, when the mother was at church, the father (who was not Johavah's Witness and was a long haul trucker) attempted to molest my friend, but she pushed him off her and locked herself in her bedroom until her mother got home.

She told her mother what happened, her mother confronted her father, he admitted it (he was very ashamed). The mother had the father arrested, and started (and later finished) divorce proceedings. This, despite the fact that she was a stay at home mother, with no job skills and 5 kids at home. She had no means of support, and even if she got alimony and child support after the divorce, her husband was in jail, with no money to pay her with.

Later, she told my mother that representitives from her church came by and told her to take her husband back, that divorce was against God and the Church. She told them, "I think God will forgive me", and threw them out of her house. They then changed to a more mainstream Christian faith.

Would your friend rather be the mother who stayed together for the kids or the mother who risked everything to keep the kids safe.

Staying together for the kids is fine if the parents have just grown apart, there is nothing really wrong in the relationship, you'd just not marry the person if you had it to do again, and you can be civil towards each other and co parent effectively. But anytime there is a threat of violence or worse, and anytime the familial balance of power is asbolutely in the hands of only 1 parent, you need to get out. God will forgive you.

One tenet of Christianity is that married people should be "evenly yoked".

I don't judge LDS or Jehovah's Witnesses, or other faiths in terms of whether they're Christian or not. I also don't judge people who ascribe to other religions (i.e. Islam, Judiasm, Buddism), because I've been taught that I may have found my truth, and it may resonate inside me, but I'd be awfully arrogant (and stupid) to think that God is an Episcopalian.

The marriage vow is sacred, and breaking it is a sin, but I would argue that the husband has broken it. Love, honor, cherish and be faithful, right (different words for different weddings)? It's not just sexually cheating that breaks those vows. He's not honoring and cherishing her, is he?

My Christian response is that the boy needs a "come-to-Jesus meeting", preferably with a member of clergy. Somebody needs to help him understand what kind of lame role model he's being for the kids. He needs to understand that she doesn't, in fact, have a Christian obligation to stay in a home where she's not respected. He can have an epiphany, or he can just start budgeting for an apartment he can sleep in while he pays for the family's needs.

There is something in Scripture about a wife being subject to her husband, but it is followed by a mandate that sets the bar very high for husbands.

It's imperative that the girls not normalize disrespect, or, even worse, associate it with how male-female relationships work. Not only is every dig a sin, it's a lesson for the kids. The kids will be in total conflict when the two people they love and trust to care for them are mean to one another. Scripture is very clear on our responsibilities to children. We have to raise them in the ways of the Lord. Jesus doesn't diss women.

I agree with the sentiment many others have expressed. One thing to note is that, while I can't be sure from reading your note above, she may not be asking for your advice. Listening may be what she needs most. Clearly she has put a lot of thought into this. I think many of us have experienced, either directly or through a friend, a situation where we cannot see what is so clear to others, until we're ready to see it for what it is. We need to come to that conclusion on our own, in our own time (sort of like hitting rock bottom, unfortunately). Be gentle and supportive in your approach. A Christian response would be to encourage her to pray about it for God to lead her in the right direction and give her strength.

GopherGirl is a discussion follower. She lives in the West Valley with her husband and two boys, ages 4 and 2.

Thanks for all the feedback... I'm there to just listen, but sometimes I do want to give some advice. I have known her for many many years and we are like sisters. She most definetly is not a "doormat", because she does speak up for herself. He does have a low self-esteem and I believe that he does this to make himself feel better. When I say "verbal abuse", it's not like he calls her a "B" . An example would be that he constantly has to find something wrong with, how she cooked the rice or over cooked the chicken, or she told me that when she mows the lawn, he comments how she didn't cut it short enough, ect. I kinda laughed when I found out she does the yard and pool, but she's has always been a tomboy, so she told me that she perfers doing the outside verses the inside housework, but because she stays home she does both, he works about 60+ hours a week and she does it cause she has the time during the day to do both. She shared with me that after many years of marriage, she is just sick of the complaining that he constantly does and that he is slowly turning into his dad, who is verbally abusive and physically. I believe that if my friends husband was physically abusive that she would have left him along time ago.
Both daughters are very independent and in a sense my friend has raised them on her own, since he is not always there. Do to working all the time.

Thanks for all the feedback... I'm there to just listen, but sometimes I do want to give some advice. I have known her for many many years and we are like sisters. She most definetly is not a "doormat", because she does speak up for herself. He does have a low self-esteem and I believe that he does this to make himself feel better. When I say "verbal abuse", it's not like he calls her a "B" . An example would be that he constantly has to find something wrong with, how she cooked the rice or over cooked the chicken, or she told me that when she mows the lawn, he comments how she didn't cut it short enough, ect. I kinda laughed when I found out she does the yard and pool, but she's has always been a tomboy, so she told me that she perfers doing the outside verses the inside housework, but because she stays home she does both, he works about 60+ hours a week and she does it cause she has the time during the day to do both. She shared with me that after many years of marriage, she is just sick of the complaining that he constantly does and that he is slowly turning into his dad, who is verbally abusive and physically. I believe that if my friends husband was physically abusive that she would have left him along time ago.
Both daughters are very independent and in a sense my friend has raised them on her own, since he is not always there. Do to working all the time.

Suffer the children not... (I'm not sure where that is in the Bible or the context, but I know it is in there.)

If she feels the children are suffering by seeing their mother abused emotionally then she should not sacrifice herself. Her body and soul are temples too, to be honored and cared for, subjecting them to verbal vandalism, I feel is against God's will and plan.

However, if she wants to stay, I think she should get counciling and then they get counciling.

Lovemy4 is a discussion leader for North Central Phoenix, tired mother of 4 great kids and wife to one great husband.

Staying in a marriage can be more damaging to the kids than going through a divorce. She is sending a message to her kids that it is ok for a husband to treat a wife that way and that is the kid's role model! Staying married may not be the best for the kids.

soccermom

This is such a difficult situation. I knew families growing up that did precisely what your friend is doing and it did not end up well for the children. Two of the guys I went to high school with each had parents who stayed together for the kids. When they were off at college their parents separated.
One of the guys knew his parents were constantly fighting and heard things that he should not have heard growing up. His mother just left one day after he and his brother were out of the house. To this day both he and his brother have been unable to commit to others. I wonder if it would have been different had his parents split up when they were younger.
The other friend of mine had no idea his parents were having problems.
He, too, was devastated in a different way. He ended up running off and marrying someone and not returning home.
I am not advocating leaving a spouse spontaneously, but I do think it is important if you are going to stay in a potentially toxic environment to get counseling and address issues.
Do you think it is right to assume they will handle a divorce or separation better when they are older?

JuneSlager is a discussion leader for arizonamoms.com, raising three children (ages 15, 14, & 11) in Northeast Phoenix.